Applied Science - 2014-07-26
I bought a -100*C refrigerated cold trap from a surplus sale, which was not operational. In this video, I describe how the unit works after recharging its second stage with R1150 (ethylene) refrigerant. Savant RVT4104 - (manual) http://phoenix.tuwien.ac.at/chemistry/Gebrauchsanweisungen/SAVANT%20Vapor%20Trap.pdf
Very interesting! If you ever want it colder try natural gas. It boils at -163 and is very easy to get. It's an amazing refrigerant. No it won't explode.
Yep. I think refrigerant grade methane is R-50 or so...
@@kayakMike1000 Spot on lol
I love the way you abruptly end your older videos
As usual, absolutely fascinating. Thanks you so much. The combination of hands-on stuff with solid scientific background is quite unique.
Nice compact system - well done on the repair - and to think it was nearly scrapped due to a leak!!
Was the issue with getting the etyhlene one of finding it at all, or finding someone who would sell a small amount at a sensible price?
Finding the gas for sale at any price was challenging. All refrigeration shops require their customers to have an EPA license, otherwise they just hang up the phone. Local welding shops all looked at me like I was nuts. Some told me that I should stop making drugs with the gas. Agricultural ethylene isn't usually pure enough, and is usually sold as an on-site service. One gas supplier agreed to sell it, but wouldn't allow me to pick it up from them, and also refused to deliver it to my house. A true wild goose chase!
Applied Science This is what I hate about the "corporate system", they have regulated the individual out of most tech markets. I tried to get a form of bacteria for a ABE fermentation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clostridium_acetobutylicum), yet I am not a corporation, so they wouldn't even consider selling me a sample. This bacteria dies when exposed to oxygen, and is considered to have the same "health hazard" as common baking yeast sold on super market shelves. Purpose of experiment was to make butanol, a DIRECT replacement for gasoline. It doesn't take a Disney imagination to know why these restrictions are in place.
Applied Science So, where'd you end up getting the ethylene from in the end?
mrpeanutguy4719 I'd like to tell everyone, but I'm afraid that my source will dry up if I do, and I want to get more exotic gasses from this source.
Applied Science Very cool (cryogenic even), that should give you more throughput than the nested bowls.
I have been trying for months to get a new high speed camera imported to Canada and have been running into the same kinds of nonsence. The manucature will not export, ship to re-mailing services or sell to me in person if I were to show up at their office being an individual from out of country. "Civilian science" has taken a big hit in the last decade.
These cold traps are fun to rebuild. The piercing valve definitely caused the problem. The best thing on these system is to pinch off the lines and remove the Schaeder valve completely
What a coincidence! Just 5 mins ago I was reading the manual of a cryogenic vacuum pump that we are fixing at the lab and then I saw your video which is actually quite relevant to what I'm doing.
Great video. I used to build these as computer coolers as a hobby over 10 years ago, that was fun!
Looking at your 2-stage schematic, it seems that you placed the oil separator in the 2nd stage after the evaporator.
If I recall correctly this would usually have been placed prior to the 2nd stage condenser as you want to separate the liquid oil from the gaseous refrigerant using gravity, in order to prevent the oil from clogging in your capillary tube.
P.S. you can get Ethylene and other technical gases from firms such as Linde, Air Liquide and here in Austria from Messer Griesheim.
Have you ever considered that you might not have just the best equipped home lab on YouTube.... but maybe the best equipped home lab on Earth?!!
Manual-mechanical manipulation of the e-Pi-i sync-duration universal temporal resonance bonding. This is the best Equipment.
Thanks for the great video. That looks like a lot of fun to experiment with.
A Cloud Chamber you could turn on with the flip of a switch would be nice. You might also try reaching liquid nitrogen temperature by tinkering up a third stage inside the cold chamber and liquefying air. Actually I think you can make liquid nitrogen in the neg. 100 degree cold chamber you now own, by compressing air, cooling it to 100 below zero then decompressing it to cool it further. I want one! :-)
and there I was thinking to build my own helium cryo cooler and this helped me a lot....made the whole thing simple
really thank you for this wonderful video
Heck I haven't played with r-503 since the 70's I remember the small cylinder I carried in my service truck was $500 back then. Oh, and on warm days I could hear the liquid sizzling in the cylinder as it sloshed around while I was driving. You still might be able to get it, but it's gotta be through the roof cost wise. This video brought back memories of ultra low temp systems that all used exotic gasses like ethane, with a touch of propane to carry the oil around the system to keep the compressor lubricated.
I work on Environmental testing chambers/ cascade refrigeration every day. Found this very interesting.
Interesting video as always, Ben. Reminds me I should look at the cooling side of the water cooler I salvaged. Might be something useful there.
Very interesting. I wouldnt mind seeing more about this kind of tech. In my industry we use freezers capable of -185C and ive often wondered how they got to such low temps
Olá, pode me informar o modelo?
At the end I thought you were about to submerge your fingers in -102C alcohol, but I knew better. Good work!
Thanks for another great video.
After watching the video showing you have access to, and some proficiency with a TIG machine, I thought you would have HEli-brazed/ TIG-Bronzed the refrigerant tubing connections.
If you haven't yet worked with it, it may be something you'd like to become familiar with. Silicon bronze can be very useful for joining copper as well as dissimilar metals. It is pretty easy to work with, doesn't require the temperature for welding, so may provide some advantages related to distortion or working in close proximity to heat sensitive components and the strength is typically far greater than gas brazing filler.
+beng Typically with refrigeration systems, we use an alloy of silver and copper with a trace amount of phosphorous for flux, which contains anywhere between 30% (expensive stuff but flows into the joints really well!) to 15% silver.
You can affect the pressure in a system by altering the amount of refrigerant in it.
You can also get the vampire valves to seal if you don't crank the needle down all the way when you puncture the pipe. When you're done with the system you just crank the needle down until it seals where the needle functions as a piston and the pipe a valve seat.
It's essentially a small needle valve.
Nice video! R13B1 - most cold refrigerant im see ever in first stage. -57.5C on 1 bar. Impressive.
I really really love this video. I have always been curious about how a cooling system works and especially making it ultra cool.
I know there is something called a peltier cooler. I have heard that you can get to very low temperature with that if the heat produced by it can be moved away quickly. Can you reach -100c with a peltier cell?
nattsurfaren Peltier elements are heat pumps, meaning if you have somewhere to move the heat to, the opposite side will just get colder and colder (to a reasonable limit). The reverse is true as well, if you can dissipate the cold, the hot side will get hotter and hotter.
There freezers that get below 150°C
what freezer? can you tell me, i can make -135 freezer
Thats so cool. Here is a task for you add a third refrigeration circuit and take the temperature further down. I had a chance to work on 3 refrigeration cascade system.
Wow. I can't believe that line tap was left on there. It must have been a Friday afternoon on Christmas eve for a tech to leave that there. Standard course of action is to crimp the tube (and leave the crimps locked down), cut the tube with some pliers or big side cutters between the crimp and the tap, and quickly solder the end.
This is still possible when there is flammable refrigerant in the system. Just work quick and the torch/flame effect from the refrigerant is minimal.
The fluid the manufacturer uses is not alcohol but a silicone based oil. I think if you measure the temperature of the liquid you will find it not as cold as it is showing on the display. They put the thermocouple on the inlet to the evaporator on those cold traps and lie about actual temperature. Great job by the way for someone with no knowledge of cascade systems. The boss repairs these and ultralow freezers for a living.
Just a note: You can not get the low side's pressure "arbitrarily" low, i.e. you cannot go below 0 Bar/perfect vacuum. And even at absolutely 0 pressure, any refrigerant will still have its specific boiling point (way) above 0 Kelvins, and cannot refrigerate to below this boiling point.
1:15 Excellent explanation! I remember as a child it taking me much much longer to grasp this concept yet you made it sound simple :)
Phase change point. Quote of THIS vid, great job as always
Excellent acquisition. Glad you made it work again.
Hi Ben,
Don't you think that it can be interesting to apply your ethelene to facilitate ripening of fruits?
You can make a timelapse video of ripening of various fruits in air, ethylene (50%) and high-pressure ethylene.
Thanks
No question. Depending on whether you want to ripen table top fruit or controlled atmosphere stored fruit. I use bananas, prolific ethylene producers, to ripen other table top/bowl fruit.
FInally! Someone who can articulate clearly! This was enlightening; I am not a refrigeration tech. I am however looking for answers. I want to convert a refrigerator or a chest freezer to serve also as a freeze-dryer, which means I will need to be able to pull a vacuum, which means more modifications. Does a common freezer reach minus 40 F? How low does a common refrigerator go? Is it feasible to convert a refrigerator to a freezer and reach -40F? Thanks in advance for any answers and common sense advice. Your video was great.
***** A common refrigerator uses the wrong refrigerant/pressure combination to reach very much below 32F/0C & a common "combo" fridge/freezer will likely only be able to reach slightly below 0F/-18C in the freezer section. A chest freezer, however, can often reach -20F/-28C, so could forseeably be capable of reacing -40 in a cold room, &/or with fairly minor modification (such as reducing the refrigerant charge, using an appropriate manifold, to lower the low-side boiling point).
That makes sense. Thanks for the insightful answers.
i have same troulbe with you. Now, have you found the solution for it? please tell to me?thanks so much
you can look up the boiling point of any gas in a chart on Wikipedia and that will be the theoretical lowest temp for your refrigerant sys(you will never get that cold cause of higher pressure is sys). common refrigerant for eg R134a is -26C. If you want to go colder look into filling with R290(-42). This stuff gets really complicated real fast is you want to do something out of the ordinary and unless you have a good understanding of what you're doing I'd stay away from these experiments
Philip Murray & @@robherch2312 IMHO dropping the 2nd stage, low temp., unit into the freezer cabinet is so simple and allows use of unpressurized medium for heat transfer to point of use.
Great bit of kit for an experimental lab. Cheers, Mark
the system actually seems rather simple, pretty awesome you can make your own dry ice :P
Nice explanation of two stage refrigeration ( cascade process)
I like your reasoning for choosing a 100psi charge pressure. Lol. Although capillary systems do require a critical charge. Unlike thermal expansion valves which can regulate the refrigerant flow and the excess refrigerant is kept in a liquid receiver. Sounds like you got lucky and it worked for you though!
was looking if anybidy knows about subcool and superheat here, congratz
Thank you! Ben, very good information. I used to play with this systems but I never tried this set up. 😃
Wow, that sure will come in handy on a lot of projects.
Midwave infrared thermal cameras usually operate at 77K, so they use a Sterling cooler with a cold finger that is right at the back of the sensor. But others use LN2 or even stacked peltier elements.
This is just awesome.
I wish to see some experiments with cold temperatures.
Do you ever thought about a room tour? I think it would be awesome to see your complete Workshop.
I recall seeing his workshop tour video. You might have to go back a year or two through his videos to find it.
RimstarOrg I will search for it, but a update would be nice, too :D
ooohh... You could build a super sweet cloud chamber with that!
I'm always amazed with your deep knowledge.
How can one dude be so smart? Do you have a hidden team of geniuses behind you like Khan Academy does? Did you get a certification for working on refrigerants? Can you please make a supercritical co2 air conditioner? :)
It's a dream to have a workshop like yours
You should come spend a day with me all I do is repair ultra-low cascade freezers. I have 700 of them in house at work. Including 100 Liquid Nitrogen freezers. We use mostly use propane, ethane, 404A and 508B. Couple of our units also had 134A.
Me too, I've worked on ultra low for years but not this Sanyo box with a Intercooler heat exchanger, it looks waxed but this system has no waxy oil? have you worked on a Sanyo MFD 594?
@@josephbebout8259 hey Joseph I used to work for Sanyo Gallenkamp about 20 years ago. They had a 2 stage cascade pharmaceutical chest freezer that achieved -120 deg. C.
Are you in new york/ new Jersey Jersey?
Believe it or not, if you want a lot information on cascade systems, go check out some of the various overclocking forums. There were people building 2, 3 and 4 stage cascades, some were even using auto-cascades.
Auto cascade systems are cool as hell!
are you interested in autocascade?
张鑫 yes im interested
@@张鑫-k2k im interested in autocascade!
Hi, would you like offering to me about the compressor brandname for ultra low temperature refrigerator systems?
Excellent and informative video as usual.
I'm interested to see what applications you have in store for this.
I was curious about how much has changed since this video was posted in 2014.
It only took me about 5 minutes to find a distributer claiming to have access to r1150 in the New Your area. And they were willing to sell me a small tank.
Overwatch i have made three stage cascade and i needed R1150 which was expensive so i made it myself at home from ethanol and aluminum oxide... I have it stored in my LPG tank 30 bars in 4 liter tank. I used it in my system and it worked perfectly... no problems till now
Quite interesting video, not something I see very often, thank you for posting it!
You could have a too low charge on the system. When adding refrigerant to a system you need to watch the suction pressure while it is running. Since Ethylenes boiling point is -103.7°C the pressure on the suction pipe when the system is running should be right above 0 psi gauge pressure to achieve -100°C. If there is not enough refrigerant in the system there will be vacuum in the suction side(meaning air could potentially be sucked in) and the compressor will not get enough cooling.
How could air be sucked into a totally sealed system?
@WorldConkerer2012 - 2014-07-26
I wish you were my uncle. You do so much cool stuff!