Asianometry - 2022-10-13
I get it. Everyone wants to talk about EUV. It's the sexiest lithography around with all the mirrors and the purple UV light. But I think we shouldn't discount 193 nanometer immersion lithography. Coming about in the early 2000s, it has taken the industry further than anyone could have ever expected. 193i as it is sometimes called is still a workhorse and at the core of many leading edge process nodes. For this video, I want to look at how it works and the challenges overcome in developing it. Links: - The Asianometry Newsletter: https://asianometry.com - Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/Asianometry - Twitter: https://twitter.com/asianometry
TSMC N5 and N4 are not even fully EUV. Almost only the fins in the FinFETs are made with EUV. All the TSVs and most the routing layers are made with 193i. And the reason is simple: The wafer throughput is much much higher on 193i. So if a chip has 80 layers and only 5 of them are EUV and the rest are 193i you need, say, 1 EUV machine and 8 193i machines for the same throughput as 25 EUV machines would give you. Considering just how brutally more expensive the EUV machines are this is the difference of having a break-even after 3 years at full capacity or 30 years at full capacity.
I thought the fins were quad duv? The big issue intel had with 10nm quad was using it for M0 - at least this is what I've heard around - (quad fin patterning was industry standard for a while I believe). I wouldn't be shocked if they changed the litho tech for the N5 fins though for throughput reasons.
If euv Is only used sparringly couldn't it be replaced with greater use of múltiple layering duv?
@@diegoantoniorosariopalomin9979 you could up until some point. But at quad EUV is just cheaper and higher throughput. Multi patterning also increases design rule complexity.
@@ab-lymphocite5464 does it matter too much when EUV Is only used sparringly like you said?
EUV may make comercial Sense for most nations, but china wont have access to it for several years, however what you said may mean that restriction wont be a killing blow to their chip industry
@@diegoantoniorosariopalomin9979 You want EUV anywhere where you would be quad patterning because it kills yields and makes your nodes much more expensive/slower. And quad patterning can’t really carry you beyond n5 maybe n3. With this in mind and the fact that smic’s n16 copy isn’t in hvm at any real scale, I am highly skeptical of the prc being able to cover it’s needs anytime soon. To say nothing of being cut off from the metrology, ald, and many more tools. The prc also has to develop their own native dry and then wet 193nm litho tools to even be able to get the scale to make any modern nodes.
This is great - many people think that EUV is the only industry tech out there since it makes the headlines. You're doing important educational work, thanks for putting these together!
Something modern like a Zigbee controller may very well be produced on 193i, just like so many other kinds of chips.
That's because it actually is at present. 153nm hasn't really been resolved and yields make it cost prohibitive. Wafers are not cheap! Bad yields and disposal of dirty water (or treatment) isn't cheap or easy either. The result is that EUV is the only tech that currently makes sense from cost and quality due to the combinations of problems and low yields.
As an D&E Engineer at ASML for the DUV (193 nm) machines. I would like to thank you for this video. Too bad I can not share any technical details with you.
It’s important to remember even in the n5 and smaller nodes especially in the back end of the line an EUV machine is overkill. Most process levels have CDs well In the range of 193i. Nearly all modern foundries operate these tools and will for many more years
The exception is the lower metals which are getting to the point of low NA EUV double or DUV quad patterning. But yeah it is frustrating how much EUV can sometime be overemphasized.
Can't wait for you to release the video explaining the new US restrictions and their implications.
what restrictions?
Unless US gives an exemption, otherwise ASML, Nikon and Canon can't sell any new or old lithography to China anymore. I am use all 3 uses some US tech one way or the other. Same for other machines that use in fab.
@@NoNameAtAll2 US ban many technologies export to China, which is good for the world
@@Theoryofcatsndogs I guess the machines that made it to China will be running 24/7.
@@NoNameAtAll2 Forbid US tech firms or those using US patents to sell advanced chips and equipment to China and the latest move included US persons to service equipment sold to China.
You sound very tired. We are very grateful for the effort you put into it.
I work in lithography for a big company. It's fun seeing these tools and the graphics you have. It really helps!
Great video as always. Thought you sounded a little down while narrating this. Hope you're doing well. Take care!
I realized that as well. Hope he's doing well
Love Asianometry! Your rock, dude! Keep on trucking.
I work for Carl Zeiss SMT and the immersion optical system is one of our most difficult systems with a lot of challenges in the production.
Why is that?
For you, maybe.
9:27 I love the note on the corner. I really needed help to figure out if they were using 10 cm shower heads on 197 nm wafers. Great mix of excellent education and dry (wet?) humor as always.
U hit these outta the park every time in my opinion. I really, REALLY enjoy your videos so thank u very much! I do wish, however, that they could’ve been a little longer but I’m assuming the YouTube algorithm perhaps doesn’t favor those longer videos as much. Well besides the fact that there’s already a lot of work going into a 16 minute video of course.
🙏✌️🖖🙌
Our legacy fab is still using it!
Our cutting edge one is as well :D
Way to go asianometry!!! Please be motivated please!!
10:52. That is an amazingly illustrative flaw! The system projected the bubble unto the waver, showing that the air does not shrink the image as the surrounding water, as the refractive index in air/gas is much closer to one.
When I read about the US export ban on semiconductor production equipment to China in Peter Zeihan's newsletter, I immediately thought of this channel and tried to find an existing video on the topic, but there is only one about China's equivalent to ASML, which is many years behind the cutting edge. I would love for you to cover the implications of the ban for Chinese domenstic semiconductor production. Zeihan says that they are screwed, because they are completely dependent on foreign imports to produce anything remotely marketable, but I was not able to confirm this assessment.
Believing that guy is humanity's greatest mistake. He talks of US isolation and how world will go to chaos without them. Absolutely astonishing.
On one hand, you've got the people who think China will catch up in 5 years. Then you've got people like Zeihan. The truth is in the middle if you ask me.
You said they dont do well, one for the algorithm. 80k + people learned something, you did fkn amazing
Immersion lithography works in large part because you literally CHANGE the wavelength of the light because of the high index of refraction of water for the corresponding light. The index of refraction depends on the frequency of the light -- that doesn't change. The wavelength (lambda) and frequency (f) satisfy
lambda * f = v
where v = speed of light in the medium. The speed of light in the medium satisfies v = c/N, where "c" is the speed of light in vacuum, "N" is the index of refraction of the medium at the given frequency, and N = 1 for vacuum. So in vacuum or in air, as the index of refraction of air is almost one, then you have lambda(air) * f = c, and for water lambda(watter) * f = c/N, which after a little bit of algebra gives you
lambda(water) = lambda(air)/N.
Since at the frequency when you have lambda(air) = 193 nanometers, N(water) is fairly large, you get that lambda(water) is smaller than in air, which allows (as you know) the manufacture of smaller features.
EDIT: I guess that what you have called NA in your formula is pretty much what I am simply calling N --- but I just had to correct the fact that you are actually changing the wavelength, it doesn't stay the same, because the medium where the light travels changes from air to water; rather, what is always the same is the frequency of light. Sorry, but I am a physicist, and I just could not let it go --- I still like your videos very much. I am not trying to disparage you in any way.
Immersion lithography introduces added complexity and expense over dry lithography. Ensuring a clean environment for high-purity water and managing environmental issues related to water disposal are critical. Moving wafers into and out of the fluid can be intricate. It is vital to control the movement precisely while preserving the fluid layer. It is also crucial to minimize or eliminate bubbles. The immersion fluids must be transparent at the 153 nm wavelength (utilized in EUV lithography), and achieving such transparency presents a continuous challenge since the 153 nm wavelength is in the deep ultraviolet (DUV) spectrum, making it difficult to find materials that are transparent and compatible with semiconductor lithography processes.
you doing better research than any techtuber
Again, excellent research into the history of lithography. You should look into reticle purge and how that also differentiated ASML and Nikon scanners.
Jheeze man, incredible work.
The American banned the Chinese from buying the Lithography machines. Can the Chinese make it by themselves even taking 10 years to build?
They can. And some of the patents are starting to expire. But they lack the practical knowhow (a patent is practically useless other than telling you where to start looking), so yeah, 10 years sounds about right.
@@andersjjensen This is made easier by having working machines.
Given they don't have dry DUV tools being produced at any scale almost two decades after release of immersion DUV, and that there are no EUV tools in the PRC (to my knowledge) I would assume that it would be way longer than 10 years.
@@andersjjensen When has IP stopped mainland Chinese companies. Totally second you on how patents are not always super useful.
Sometimes with optics there is no substitute for experience, and one just has to work on it really hard for a rather long time to learn all the nuances -- it takes a lot of skill and sometimes luck too. That's one of the reasons why Zeiss in Germany is supplying the optics for the top of the line machines. They have almost two centuries of experience and had world's most renowned opticians developing their methods. It is not trivial to catch up to them.
Always learning something in this channel, thanks!
your channel is fucking awesome, I love your passion on it
I have a video suggestion:
With EUV reaching limits because of the wavelength theres the question "is there another way to produce even smaller features?". I heard that using electrons archives that, but it is a lot slower and can't be used for high volume production.
Physics is a "beach", bro. There is always a tradeoff
I loved this. But also all the other subjects you approach. Thank you!
Never in a million years would I have expected the Nas Ether reference 🤣
It's funny that the brick wall was hit over ten years ago with the legacy technology and leading edge technology lines are now blurred. The cutting edge is still in focus. Is the space race over?
You're humor is so dry- I love it
Been waiting for this one, great as always!
a video on electron beam lithography/deposition/direct etching may be interesting as an alternative process
Electron beam lithography is much, much slower, like 1000s of times slower.
@@mx2000 less demanding on hardware by roughly the same amount though, and an interesting topic nonetheless
Excellent episode, thank you for enlightening this subject!
Hey Asianometry, love your content! Have you every considered doing a video on space-based microfabrication? It's something I've seen a lot of hype around recently, but have been unable to any papers or otherwise outlining the proposed fabrication processes - would love to see you tackle it!
Long overdue. Excellent. I learned a lot.
Cannon just announced that they're getting back in the lithography game.
Any thoughts on how difficult that'll be for them or guesses on how successful they will be?
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I am always interested in alternate paths that might end up being the "next big thing".
X-rays, E-beam, etc.
I remember I first heard of the immersion technique just before I got laid off in 2013.
Every fab that was using DUV at the time I bet are now using the immersion steppers. Steppers when they stop being cutting edge find their way into commodity parts. Which means they get smaller as well.
Beautiful. The history of technology just behind the bleeding edge.
All that sexy purple EUV light!!! Lolol
you are talking about technology very well and concise, maybe u should try to begin to review electronic products too
In the next 5 to 10 years, I think China's chip industry will be very well paid and have very good working conditions and hours. This is because of China's growing chip worker shortage. And the Chinese government are making chips and technology their first priority. Unlike the US, increasing wages and standards of working won't be much of a hassle due to the fact that in China, rich businessman and corrupt CEOs don't have nearly as much power as in the US.
Yup, China will throw unlimited money and human resources at this chip war. And they are going to win
Man, there are a lot of lens elements in this machine. Just to make a projected image smaller. I had a Nikonos under water camera, a 15mm lens for macro photography. It had many lenses nested on top of each other , convex, concave to be able to be an inch away from the subject and have a wide field of view with no fish eye effect. The no fish eye effect was the reason for all the lenses in a wide field. The lens itself cost $4,000.00 in the year 2000. Very pricey.
Doing the lords work sir
Awesome explanation, thank you!
Great video. We still need a LOT of not state-of-the-art lithography for all the workhorse chips industry needs. It would be nice to not have to depend on shipping these all from Asia.
Amazing tech, this.
Okay, okay, dad, I'll never call immersion lithography old again.
Magic is just technology you don't understand yet, indeed.
"Any sufficiently analyzed magic is indistinguishable from science!" -- Agatha, from Girl Genius comic. 5th of Dec 2008.
@daviddevlogger - 2022-10-13
People often say that motivation doesn’t last. Well, neither does bathing. That’s why we recommend it daily
@smoothcortex - 2022-10-15
Brilliant
@moRaaOTAKU - 2022-10-20
It's not like if u just buy the motivation like u do with water