Marco Reps - 2020-08-17
Try JLCPCBs famous prototyping services: https://jlcpcb.com/ TS80P Soldering Iron Banggood https://bit.ly/312l2ER Microscope I used to film https://www.welectron.com/Andonstar-AD407-Digital-Microscope Behind the scenes sometimes https://www.patreon.com/marcoreps Linear AN124 https://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/application-notes/an124f.pdf KiCAD project https://github.com/marcoreps/low_noise_amplifier EEVBlog Forum thread https://www.eevblog.com/forum/metrology/diy-low-frenquency-noise-meter/ Vintage German Hermetic Tantalum Caps https://www.ebay.com/itm/361575306139 This is a bit of a boring video subject, but by getting it out of the way now, it'll be much easier to focus on whatever we need these noise measurements for later. 0:00 Intro 2:02 Circuit Design 4:12 PCB & Assembly 8:13 TS80P 9:58 Input Cap Problems 15:56 Input Cap Solutions 18:01 Lame results 22:23 Cool results
Fascinating to see. I've been caught out by battery noise before, you can't trust that chemistry stuff.
Oh, and I love the bicycle based terrier launch system, I'd try it myself except I've got a fat border collie that won't fit in a basket!
have a fat australian shepherd, can confirm
TERRIERS DEPLOYED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Dispatch War Rocket Ajax!
"you can't trust that chemistry stuff."
Words to live by.
Great video.
Here are my suggestions, first two are about the low pass filter:
1: You care about time-domain, so you should use Bessel alignment (not Butterworth, although the roll-off looks more attractive, it's resonant, so every 'bump' leaves ringing...), and really get that step response to settle without overshoot. As close to critically-damped as you can.
2: Also, avoid x7r in the frequency-dependant parts of the filter - they don't have linear capacitance vs voltage - you need c0g / np0, and they're big when you need a really low corner frequency. Use arrays of them (as it's easier to achieve the capacitance ratio you'll need for point 1).
3: Consider that 'chopper stabilized' also means 'discrete time'. It's a sampled time system, albeit one sampling over quite long intervals. You'll need a passive low pass in front of it to reject signal that might otherwise alias. (because if it does, it will invariably end up all over your base band). Consider that you want as much rejection ratio as you can achieve from half the chop rate up, and especially to suppress each harmonic of the chop frequency. (so, yes, you have to worry about VHF-band behaviour, or, what happens to your op amps at VHF through UHF when you're mostly aiming for low frequency. Worry about unexpected resonances because of things like capacitor resonance.
4:You're trying to avoid making a self-mixing superheterodyne radio receiver - anything beating against itself will end up shifting itself down to right where you don't want it (near 0 Hz). So this means you want all the 'linear' parts of your circuitry to really be linear. (consider what happens in non c0g/np0 dielectrics with voltage...).
5: I have heard that 78xx/79xx fixed voltage types are not particularly great at being low noise - have been told variable types like LM317/337 etc yield lower noise. Could you see if they do?
Would really love to see whether any of the above made much impact (especially if you could measure it!) - or even better, address why I'm wrong about any of those.
Great work!
It’s really awkward to use 78xx/79xx parts when you can get purpose-made low noise regulators. OTOH, modern op-amps have good PSRR, so that regulator noise may turn out to be irrelevant. It always has to be tested in the real circuit under desired load.
What a thoroughly enjoyable video.
Yet another reason to love the 7805, the toasty hero of the digital world for so many decades! Be interesting to see he noise from those drop-in switcher replacements we're supposed to be stuffing into our vintage gear these days to avoid baking all those elderly caps...
(I was exploring noise performance of power sources from a very early age. As a kid, I had a Radio Shack 65-in-1 electronics project kit. It had a little solar cell, and one summer's day I put the crystal earpiece that came with the set across the cell's terminals to see if I could hear anything from the sun. I sat in the field outside the house and - yes! Every so often, an odd, short burst of noise! What new phenomenon had I discovered? How exciting! Further observations revealed that instead of obserivng some mysterious cosmic fusion process, I had found a way to eavesdrop on bumble bees as they flew across the face of the cell. Ah, well.)
Soldering SMD resistors is much easier when you fill one pad with solder, then place the resistor with tweezers and solder it to that pad. Then, when it is placed fine, solder the other side.
you're a lucky man living so close to such succulent wild capacitor growths! I only get green ceramic caps growing by me :(
im being honest here guys. i felt dumber and dumber the more i watch his videos. it is up to a point where i can understand him but i felt like he is a magician with all those results
@Marco Reps , No, only YOU know, you know! Perhaps TSP, also... ha ha ha!
yeah exactly, like watching some alien with high technology which we don't understand.
Totally agree. I feel the same when watching TSP.
Marco made me feel the same but while I know I'll never have any ppm game like his I do finally understand him haha. Some people just operate on a completely different level. Imaging being able to smush Marco, Andreas and the big Scotsman's intellect into a single brain what the outcome would be hahaha. I left a bunch of names out their for the sake of being brief and humorous, to those wanting to add those names just know I agree before you suggest someone else lol
I feel the same!
please make more of those, incredibly interesting! Ressources about high precision, and more subtle analog electronics are pretty rare
It's nice to see that you're making full use of your CaSCaDS (Capacitor Sniffing Canine Deployment System) to sniff out rare components in the wild. We have a miniature poodle that was like that but his central guidance computer has become easily corrupted by nearby flowers and passing females. His glory days are over but not forgotten so we just let him lie by his charge port bowl and dream of former conquests in the field.
I think I can speak for everybody here when I say don't worry about the length of your videos. You are either into this kind of thing and are going to watch all the way through (like I do on all your videos) or you're going to change the channel really quick. Just go as long as you think it needs to go. We're all right behind you watching ☺️
Really cool video! When I do the kind of electronics I do... I round to the nearest volt and hope for the best. If my oscilloscope cant measure it, its basically quantum foam.
Tools for the sake of tools. Love this video. Great mix of good stuff and the welcome humor to make all go down so well. Thank you!
Dropped everything to watch this. Few things are as soothing as some nice low low digits... what a Balsam für the Seele.
I absolutely love the low tech stuff - it's interesting to see what projects you are working on no matter the fanciness
Honestly, I think one of those boards would be awesome for a synthesizer. Random LFOs tend to just be a sample and hold connected to a noise source; pair one of these babies with, say, a Chua circuit modulated by multiple noise sources, and you could get a truly random, continuous, smooth LFO.
About half a year ago, I got the ts80 (non p) and I am really impressed, how it handled soldering to large ground planes on a 4 in 1 esc. It's better than my cheep soldering station, that was almost the same price, but bought locally.
I absolutely love the tactical good boy deployment
Wow, I could overcome my distaste for dogs if he could tell us where to get the terrier launch system!
What an awesome Video! Really like those almost-esoteric-nanovolts-measurement-things (TM). Tapping on the bench to change the output of a source by some order of magnitude, just absolutely amazing!
I find that the amazing range of sensitivity of the detectors in the xxxtruffelxxx, I mean, Capacitor Hounds is better than most heat seeking missiles; Just very impressed you can release the onboard compliment of cap hounds, at speed, at such a distant range with their ability to zero in on the target at such high speed and accuracy. Bonus points for bringing along a cordless iron to be able to release the caps from their natural environment! $6,000 for two caps :-O !
Any future electronic projects I will be sure to call out: "Release the Hounds!"...
These videos are as (or more) interesting when compared to the CNC and laser stuff. I love this low noise series.
The laser and CNC videos are impressive, but this gets me excited to work on my own electronic test and measurement projects.
Exactly. We like a healthy mix of approachable projects and sheer wizardry.
That makes me think about current cpu's , that operates in very low core voltage. So I think their power sources and related circuits should be somewhat precise, or otherwise a 1 could become a 0 or vice versa
It would be even cooler to see how all these perform inside a container that is both temperature controlled and shielded
Your videos are never "too Long" and they also never will. I enjoy every second...
I came here many months ago for the electronics content. However, you could be describing a tree growing for 30 minutes and I would watch that too. Thanks for bringing us excellent narration and overall production value.
Just a small tip - when you're soldering SMD resistors/caps - put some solder to one pad on PCB first, then place resistor/cap on top of that pad, solder resistor/cap on that side holding it with tweezers and then solder the other side of resistor/cap. In this case resistor/cap will not be trying to run away.
This looks like manual soldering hell to me. I mostly watch your videos for their production quality, dark humor and the awesome German accent (fellow German here). I'd even watch you moving grass if it is presented in your usual style
You might be able to make a pseudo low leakage cap by using two caps in series, and connecting the center node to ground through a resistor (10k). You control the leakage by making the DC voltage across the second capacitor essentially zero.
I loved the video. I am mesmerized by what you are able to achieve. Also, the trip to the forest and your commentary puts a smile on my face. Thank you!
I think it's under-appreciated how much work Marco goes into to give us cap plants.
I love this type of technical videos! Laser stuff and such is flashy and fun, but I prefer the ones that leave me amazed at all the things I have yet to learn!
I mean, what's this all gonna come down to? What's his evil masterplan?
Gosh! capacitors are already in season. I must go and have a look locally, though whether I'll find any is hard to say - it has been so dry recently.
up here in north germany as well, there are hardly any over 220µf
@Der Nerd : This is called the "Fischkoppeffekt" !
(Gruss aus ehemals Eckernfoerde)
I just got back from a new harvest of capacitors last week in Estonia and I'm starting to get overstocked of these._
Thanks Marco, another great video. You have a LOT of new toys, the MDO (with Tek probes), the 2002 (!!!), the 5700A looks finished (looking forward to that video), the Advantest.... You've totally fallen down the voltnut rabbit hole, but what's even more worrying is you have a spectrum analyser and you mentioned a VNA in this video. I only hope you meant Volt Nuts Anonymous, otherwise it's only a matter of time before you go full "The Signal Path".
2002 was a loaner for 5700 verification is already back home - missing it a lot :(
This is my favorite video, Marco 👌
I like these project videos where you go from conception to design to build to testing—they're entertaining and educational. Please do more project videos!
I get that it's fun and gratifying to tackle a challenge like this, and it's important ro understand and test the limits of a measuring device. But is there some practical application outside of bench testing where this level of noise has a non-negligible impact? The video starts by saying there are use cases where the effects matter, but doesn't say what they might be. (I'm not trying to be a smart ass - I really want to know.)
Terrific! I had just read the entire "10k gain low-noise 0.1-10Hz amplifier" thread on... that forum, and have been thinking about building something. Thanks for sharing this work! I learned some things. These are challenging problems.
Here's a tip for keeping SMD components in place when hand-soldering: Use a helping hands soldering aid. Extend the arm all the way out in one direction, and point the alligator clip downward. Put a piece of stiff wire or a needle in the clip. Move the arm so the needle is slightly below the level of the SMD part, and place the needle on top of the part. Even the smallest parts can be held in place this way. You may have to put some shrink tubing on the alligator clip jaws, to allow it to snugly hold the needle.
It'd be great to see the noise of common linear regulators measured. LM317, MIC29301, AMS1117, XC6206, HT7550, etc. Legend has it that the old LM723 has a pretty silent reference.
I used to work at a cal lab, the 1 volt standard was kept inside a tank of liquid nitrogen. couldn't tell you about its design, I was not about to take it out and look. betting would have been a sure way to get fired fast. And I love all the test equipment you have there, would love to come over and play with it, be like a kid in the candy store :)
I love the precision measurment content, especially in long form. I love it as i'm a chemist but do high resistance measurments (100 M is a short to me). Any other Youtube channels that to precision electronic measurments?
Love the CNC Stuff, but this kind of content is my favorite, I will happily watch you chase PPMs all day long!
When soldering smt parts do this:
Add solder on ONE pad.
Hold the part with a tweezer with left hand.
With right hand reflow joint quicly while pushing part in to the molten solder.
Then do the rest of its pads.
Do resistors first, followed by successively larger parts.
Rotate board to alwalys have the part to the left of the soldering iron and its pad(s).
JLC will sell you a stencil for real cheap, if you want to reflow the board. "Chip heater" ovens from China can be really low cost too.
For one off boards oven reflowing boards is usually does not save much time.
hey Marco,
do consider flashing Ralim's firmware on your TS80s
by far the best feature is a BOOST-MODE for all those ground plane issues
it also matches the ts80 with the ts80p by having it also request 12v (so far that hasn't caused an issue)
I built my own LNA a couple of years back and got a noise floor of ~150nV. I used Nichicon Gold Audio Capacitors (3300uf) after measuring several brands. Leakage of the best ones were 1-2 nA after aging using 10V of a couple of days minimum. Cost was quite reasonable. My own LTZ1000 circuit design which does not use the ultra expensive metal cased resistors came out to about 1uV noise (0.1Hz-10Hz). Drift over the past couple of years is only a few ppm...at least it appears so given my lack of high-end test equipment. If you wish to share data send me message on EEVblog (Insatman).
Good stuff. I am having these exact same technical goals now. Thank you for doing my work for me. Best!
I don't understand electronics all the time, but I do love watching you explain in detail about things
I love these videos Marco. I will never make anything like this but I love watching the process, and I also love your humour
Pretty cool stuff, way too rich for my blood, but hey, I recognize grafana! Never used it for measuring electronic components, however (except indirectly by the "everything's a temp sensor" law)
Loved the comment about the "absolute shielding fortress" comment. Even if this is a "low tech" project in the scope of the channel, I really enjoy these more accessible long form videos. Keep it up!
All your videos are great. No matter if it is CNC, laser or electronic projects. Keep up the good work!
NYCeyes - 2020-08-17
I love these longer videos. They are so mesmerizing to watch. Keep making more of them, please! Thank you. 🤗
Marco Reps - 2020-08-17
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Vincent Nonnenmacher - 2020-08-19
Call it sophisticated porn, for volts nuts !! Thanks for that, was a pleasure :-)
Raphaël Casimir - 2020-08-19
It's even dangerous. I lost track of time
SFP - 2020-08-20
@Marco Reps fiber slm printer or a nd:yag laser video ?
Tom Cooper - 2021-02-25
@Raphaël Casimir Same here ! No joke !