NurdRage - 2024-08-03
Get your own Radiacode Gamma Spectrometer with my affiliate link: https://102.radiacode.com/NurdRage In this video we show how to get or extract thorium dioxide from commonly available thoriated Tungsten rods. Thoriated tungsten rods contain 2% thorium and are easily available online. They're among the easiest to get sources of radioactive materials other than smoke detectors. To extract the thorium, we need a way to remove the tungsten in the rods. Tungsten is resistant to acids but it is vulnerable to hydrogen peroxide. Although i prefer using electricity which is even cheaper than peroxide and also safer if handled correctly. For our 60g of thoriated tungsten rods we make our electrolyte consisting of 40g of sodium hydroxide in 200mL of water. We apply an electric current with the tungsten rods being our anodes. We can use any conductive metal for the cathodes but i'm using tungsten as well for convenience. We apply an electric current of 2amps with a maximum voltage of 6 volts. And that slowly dissolves the tungsten. I ran into the problem of the tungsten rods breaking in them middle due to uneven dissolution, so i used titanium tea infusers as anode baskets. Eventually the tungsten dissolves into sodium tungstate and the thorium drops away as thorium dioxide powder. I tried to filter the powder but it passed through. I could use a finer filter but instead i just simply let the powder settle and decant it. Then i washed it a few times with water and decanted again. This then produced crude thorium dioxide powder. This is good enough for most purposes, but if you really want it cleaner you can remove leftover tungsten dust by stirring the thorium dioxide with hydrogen peroxide (5%), it will take a few days but it will dissolve the tungsten into tungstic acid. If you have sodium hydroxide in solution it will create soluble sodium tungstate that can be washed off. Donate to NurdRage! Through Patreon (preferred): https://www.patreon.com/NurdRage Through Youtube Memberships: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCIgKGGJkt1MrNmhq3vRibYA/join Glassware generously provided by http://www.alchemylabsupply.com/ Use the discount code "nurdrage" for a 5% discount. Twitter: https://twitter.com/NurdRage Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/NurdRage/ Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/nurdrageyoutube/
Wow, that tea infuser is a game-changer
yea its used in lots of electrochemistry, i had my hands on about 10 pieces of industrialsized titanium baskets about an arms lenght each, it came from chromeplating factory
I agree. Placing a filter bag around it to catch any larger particles will minimise contamination by bigger particles and let the fine oxide pass.
That tea infuser is going to be making more appearances.
100%
THANK YOU for the note on cleanup! Almost no chem videos indicate how to safely dispose of used solutions, side products, etc, some of which are clearly pretty nasty. Chem youtube needs more notes like that!
There's another way to get tungsten into solution too. Speaking as both an amateur chemist and as a welder, tungsten reacts vigorously with sodium nitrite. This is exploited in a product called 'Chem-Sharp' for quickly putting a point on the end of welding tungsten without risking making thoriated dust. At a red heat, the tungsten quickly reacts with the nitrite and the reaction is exothermic enough to keep the metal hot. Not sure what the precise mixture of products are, but I bet they're more soluble than the tungsten metal...
You can do the same by dissolving the tungsten in molten potassium nitrate and hydroxide, but that's a very interesting use of the reaction. You dip the rod into the powder and the O2 makes it red hot again, dissolving more metal each time.
Potassium nitrate as well as sodium nitrate works too (no hydroxide needed), I used this method with sodium nitrate for producing sodium tungstate for a density separation experiment, I used non-thoriated rods so didn't have any insoluble thorium dioxide in solution but I suspect this method would work well for extracting it from thoriated rods.
Came to say this too! It's shockingly fast at dissolving entire rods too.
@@oxoniumgirl Very much so, especially if you were to do the reaction in a high pressure+high temp sealed stainless steel vessel that was capable of holding the entire length of the rods and enough molten nitrate to cover them, with a pressure relief valve at the top (set at 800-1000 PSI) it would be possible to dissolve multiple rods in a matter of seconds, the high pressure would reduce boiling and keep the rods in full contact with the molten nitrate.
But even if you just did it in a small stainless steel cup in open air it only takes a minute or two to eat an entire rod, even faster if you heat the nitrate red hot before starting. The only thing that slows the reaction is having an excess of tungstate in the molten salt, once you've burned a few rods (per 25-ish grams of nitrate) it really starts to slow down since the tungstate acts as a buffer between the tungsten and fresh nitrate.
you can get sodium nitrite from this OTC?
That time lapse of the thoriated tungsten rods was pure gold. Dancing beaker. Truly nothing to add other than that.
Extraction of radium is quite easy, as long as you don't need it in pure form (which is not really possible with the short lived isotopes of the Th-232 decay chain anyway). I did extract lanthanides from monazite and there were small amounts of thorium in there as well. The radium can be co-precipitated or adsorbed to BaSO4. The most interesting aspect about Ra isolated from the Th is that it contains the isotopes Ra-228 and Ra-224. The latter has a half life of just a few days and so you can see the second half of the decay chain fading away over the course of a few weeks and you end up with a source only giving signals for Ac-228 (the decay product of Ra-228). My product has only about 0.5 CPS due to the small amount of monazite (which had only 4 CPS of all radionuclides before extraction) but it demonstrates proof of concept.
I wonder how the Curies extracted their radium. It must have been frustrating as hell to keep chasing the radioactive ghost in the uranium extraction waste.
@@KallePihlajasaari radium-226 has a half life of 1600 years and is a daughter product of Uranium-238 (itself common), so it isn't a huge hassle to find and then extract.
Corium would also have a mess of different peaks at all sorts of different energy levels due to being a mixture of most radioactive isotopes known to man.
But it would make for a GREAT spectrum!
Sounds like cafeteria food.
Most of the short lived stuff is gone now 38 years post event so the spectrum should be decluttered a bit.
One would think that but most likely you would only see a few lines of the most relevant isotopes (for an example Cs-137). Tschernobyl was almost 40 years ago so the isotopes with a half life of 10-100 would dominate (and I think that are not that many AFAIK). Everything else goes under because your detector is saturated + other effects like compton scattering.
nice sponsor man! your chemistry style is just super enjoyable, from highschool to my (almost completed) bachelor's.
I used beach sand from Brazil to calibrate my Gamma Ray Spectrometer. It is easy to use and is plenty active enough for my purposes. The Silicon Dioxide was dead easy to remove. The bonus is that you end up with multiple isotopes.
No thorium lamp mantles were harmd in the making of this video, to the relief of those of us who like the Aladdin mantle lamps with such mantles fitted... :P
Surprisingly, simple, yet brilliant.
I never would have thought to use electrolysis when dissolving something that was that acid resistant
I love electrochemistry !
A nerd ridge love you to death watched you for years I just so happen to be a welder I have to point out to you that those are welding tungstens not welding rod welding rod is the actual material that we're using as the filler those we pump a shit ton of electricity through and use them to stabilize and control the electric arc hence the thorium
Ah gotcha! I'm an idiot. I'll see what I can do to fix it. Thanks
@@NurdRage At the end of the day it's just semantics, it is a rod that's used in the welding process. I mean you could use welding rod they're are interested to be used as anodes but they mostly consist of cellulose and mild steel
@@NurdRage dooo it!! Extract the radium!!!!!
@@NurdRageCan you guys make oral anti-testosterone testosterone inhibitors?
@@NurdRageCan you guys make oral anti-testosterone testosterone inhibitors? I think this can protect women
Would love a video on both tungstates and radium! I used 35% H2O2 to obtain my sample of thorium from thoriated rods. Wish I'd known about the electrolysis method. Been looking for some experiments with the remaining tungsten compounds. I also have some radium I'd like to work with. I'm thinking of using barium as a carrier, but would love to see how you approach it. Amazing work as always. Thanks for inspiring my love of chemistry.
I look forward to the Radioactive Nurd Scout video on making a basement reactor.
The original scout never made any kind of "reactor".
@@lajoswinkler I don't understand. Just a nuclear pile of some sort then?
HE LIVES!!! OUR LORD HAS RETURNED!!!
Where have you been?
she and lord? whuuu?
@@TheDeepDiveLLCin iceberg
He. 35 year old Canadian.
Under a rock.
He/she non of my concern
Combining two of my favourites, electrochemistry and radioactive elements.
I will happily watch any videos you make. If you think it would be fun to isolate radium from thorium oxide, go for it!
Your work is inspiring.
@1:39 - Firstly, "Heavy Metal" was the greatest cartoon movie ever. R.I.P. John Candy.
Second, our Tungsten/Carbide wedding rings put a hurting on anything they touch. We love the rings, but the damage can be very noticeable.
Oh my goodness - this is the kind of new notification that really makes me jump.
I wish I stayed in school lmao cause oi , I need this so much lmao 🤣 😂 😭
Really love the titanium basket! I’ve got some contaminated silver that I’d like to clean up and I think this would be a great basket! Just gotta check the reactivity with silver nitrate and all that (hopefully it passivates on the surface like aluminum?)
I was able to extract quite a lot more thorium dioxide from a negative ion pen from China, I would look into it maybe in a YouTube short since I know a lot of effort goes into making long videos like this, Thanks!
The stainless steel one? Did you dissolve it in an acid or did you use some other extraction technique?
Thought Emporium (regrettably) has a catalogue of thorium containing negative ion products
This content was fantastic. Not a welder, so I had to look up why Thorium is used in the Tungsten rod. Looks like it reduces the melting temp of the Tungsten when welding. I could guess why, too, the rods are ground to a point before using.
I've had more fun with chemistry (organic and inorganic) through the internet, than I did when in high school and college (Photchemistry, in college).
Thank you! One remark: It seems that the production of those red tungsten electrodes shown in this clip will be discontinued due to their radioactivity for occupational health reasons. The red eletrodes are going to be replaced by safer electrodes with Lathanium and/or Cerium. Everybody who wants to reproduce this experiment should not hesitate to get some red electrodes if possible yet. The cause for the substitute of Thorium appears fully reasonable to me, because the smoke, generated during the welding process, contains significant amounts of ThO2 (and traces of Ra).
May my wire be clean, my rig be ready, my tungsten be sharp, my hand be steady, make the next weld I make my very best, and Lord please help me pass the welding test.
Calcium tungstate can also be used as a scintillator to detect gamma radiation. :)
Great video as always :D Reminded me of a nostalgic time years ago when I used hydrogen peroxide to extract thorium dioxide (I even made a youtube video), never though of using electrolysis back then.
My friend this electrolysis process is so amazing. It can be used to build super pointy probes for electronics like a home brew Integrated circuit.
You could use it to build your own "Atomic Force Microscope".
Nice extraction, as usual. That tea infuser is very interesting...
I'd like you to try to isolate thorium, as well as concentrate radium traces in a tiny spot. Maybe as a carbonate.
I'm glad that you posted this cool extraction video. I don't plan on getting any thorium dioxide but I love knowing I could get it if I wanted to or that it is at least possible. Massive synthesis videos are cool but simple extraction is cooler
As for the strenght of the source, I got similar results by just breaking things up into little pieces and putting them into a vial, so to just have a stronger sources that fun thing isn't really necessary.
Love the clean-up recommedation 👏
You asked for comments about separating the radium. I would like to see this. You get Ra 224, with a half life of 3.6 days, so your product will be mostly gone in a couple of weeks.
The Ra 224 decays into Rn 220, which has a half life of about 1 minute. If you separate the radium you will have an opportunity to collect some of the radon gas. If this is injected into a cloud chamber, you get very interesting V-shaped tracks. One side of the V is caused by the alpha particle emitted when the Rn 220 decays to Po 216, the other side when the Po 216 decays into Pb 212. The life time of Po 216 is about 0.1 seconds, so the Po atom has an opportunity to drift a few millimeters before it decays, making a small gap in the vertex of the V. There is also the interesting question about the correlation in the angular distributions of the two sides of the V. There is a video about this by bionerd23 on youtube. I always wanted to reproduce this myself.
Summary
(0:00 - 4:06): NurdRage explains that while thoriated tungsten welding rods offer a convenient source of thorium for gamma spectroscopy calibration, their low thorium concentration (2%) and the attenuating properties of tungsten limit signal strength. He introduces electrolysis as an effective method to isolate a purer sample of thorium dioxide.
(4:06- 5:16): He initially sets up the electrolysis with tungsten rods as both cathodes and anodes in a sodium hydroxide (NaOH) solution, explaining that this process oxidizes tungsten into soluble sodium tungstate while thorium dioxide precipitates out. He also addresses the challenges of uneven rod dissolution and uses a titanium tea infuser as an anode basket for better efficiency.
(5:16- 7:58): NurdRage showcases the resulting solution after a couple of days of electrolysis, now containing separated thorium dioxide. He demonstrates the decantation process, washing and separating the thorium dioxide powder, and briefly mentions using a flocculating agent (aluminum sulfate or organic pool clarifiers) to aid settling. He emphasizes the need to avoid contamination for pure samples.
(7:58 - 9:42): He returns to the sodium tungstate solution and demonstrates a cleaning method using hydrogen peroxide to further purify the thorium dioxide by dissolving residual tungsten particles. He prefers electrolysis for bulk tungsten dissolution due to its efficiency and cost-effectiveness over peroxide. After explaining the importance of handling tungsten waste properly, he concludes by presenting the purified thorium dioxide and highlights that its gamma peaks actually originate from its daughter products, mainly radium.
Summary of Comments:
* General Sentiment: Positive feedback dominates the comments, with many expressing admiration for NurdRage's knowledge, enthusiasm, and commitment to safety while conducting potentially dangerous experiments. Many viewers also voice their fascination with radioactivity and the practical applications of these techniques.
* Requests and Suggestions: A recurrent request among commenters is for future videos exploring radium separation from thorium, highlighting the intrigue surrounding radium and its properties. There's also interest in seeing applications for the extracted thorium dioxide and repurposing the remaining tungsten.
* Additional Insights: Many comments offer insightful perspectives based on viewers' own experiences or expertise. For example, suggestions arise for alternative dissolving methods using sodium nitrite or experimenting with lanthanated tungsten. Discussions also emerge around radiation safety, proper waste disposal, and the availability of alternative sources for radioactive materials.
Overall, the video and its comment section reveal a community passionate about science and particularly interested in radioactive elements, with a desire to delve deeper into the intricacies of their extraction and potential uses.
i used gemini 1.5 pro to summarize the transcript and comments
Thank you kind internet stranger.
What a great video! I'd love to see how you separate the radium from the Thorium
Definately Superb !
Nice addendum about disposal. Good Chemist sticker++
You are just like an magician.
Awesome video sir ❤❤❤
We used the sodium hydroxide electrochemical etching process to prepare tungsten tips for doing STM. It's really pretty convenient and gives you extremely sharp (like at the atomic level) tips.
Умный дяденька, респект и уважуха!
The radium video would be cool. It's very scary to me. Cool video buddy. I'm a welder and use those electrodes for tig welding.
Wow, totally cool! This is the second after the platinum bar into the ampules, wicked cool! Have to ask your background if that is not too personal. Chem MSc of PhD?
As far as interst? GO FOR IT! I'll give a thumb every time.
PhD inorganic chemistry
I would love to see some radium extraction!
Try making tungstate phosphors from the sodium tungstate. ❤
100% interested in anything isotope related
Welcome back to the land of the living!
Finally someone did this🎉🎉🎉🎉🎉
Gas lantern mantles are coated with thorium oxide. I would think it would be eaxier to strip it from the linen or cotton threads that the mantles are made from, but never considered this until seeing your video.
Not all are but some are. I have a bunch of mantles and something like 5 or 10 of them in stack gives pretty high count rate on my Radiacode. You can always fold them or even make a wrap from them to put radiacode inside a cylinder wrap.
I'm not exactly sure but I thought mantles are made with thorium nitrate (that turns into oxide when heated) but I've never tried if it really is soluble or not. That would also not be legal in my country even though I can have mantles as long as I cause no danger with them.
hey NurdRage, have you considered isenglass or even gelatin for your flocculating agent? They're both used as fining agents in winemaking, so should satisfy your desire for organic flocculating agents.
@Sniperboy5551 - 2024-08-04
I love how he doesn’t tell us not to do what he does, he just tells us how to do it safely
@WeebRemover4500 - 2024-08-04
telling people what not to do just confuses people and messes up memory