BobbyBroccoli - 2021-10-17
For the longest time, the Bogdanoff brothers were most well known for getting nonsense Ph.Ds. But recently, they've become well know for something entirely different...and much more sinister... RIP Grichka & Igor Bogdanoff Part 1: https://youtu.be/2O1QA1VoRMM Epiphysics blog: http://ybmessager.free.fr/docs/potpourri.html My Patreon and Twitter : https://www.patreon.com/bobbybroccoli https://twitter.com/bobbybroccole 0:00 Welcome back 0:55 Chapter 6 7:28 Chapter 7 16:18 Chapter 8 22:44 Chapter 9 27:32 Chapter 10 36:55 Chapter 0
How did this go from "The Bogdannofs are kinda crazy" to "Gay scientists get revenge on the french scientific community"? This is like Chekhov's Concealed Pistol.
Im sorry but "checkov's concealed pistol" is such a good quote that I'm going to use as much as possible from now on
Also hello fellow sakamoto pfp user
They're gay?
@Stevia hoenheim no their doctoral supervisors were.
I love sakamoto
"Maybe Alan Sokal does have a true rival after all" - What an end to this saga, that final line lands so cleanly
At least Wikipedia reports him as still alive so he might have time to respond to this.
@0Clewi0
How will he reply to this though? I dont think hes aware of this videos existence?
@אהלן סהלן The way the internet connects with the real world, Twitter [shudders]
I would say his true rivals are the grievances studies affair crew. Peter Boghossian, James Lindsay, and Helen Pluckrose. But i'm guessing by how much Bobby seems to like communism I don't think he has much respect for James Lindsay who has made it his mission to call out marxists.
I know. I wish I had that kind of storytelling prowess.
Without wishing to glorify them, I saw BobbyBroccoli the other day on the subway in Puerto Rico - I was only in town for a few days as a tourist, but they showed me around. I was "amazed"! We went for coffee, had some really good, deep chats and even a Big Bang of our own. I totally changed my mind about them: they are an amazing guy.
This almost went over my head it's so clever.
Looks like a bunch of babbling and storytelling.. guess you gotta be in on the joke. The very obscure and unfunny joke.
@@Redtail11"very obscure" bruh its literally a reference to the video you're commenting on 😂
@@Redtail11 yep
@@Redtail11Oh, uh, this is from this video. It's a modified copypasta of the Bogdanov's comments about themselves, while pretending to be someone else. So, the sock puppets part.
You are right in that it's only funny in context, but if you're here, the you just need to scroll up to get the context (I'm not being sarcastic, in case that wasn't obvious).
Both of the brothers actually died from COVID about two months after this video. Both were not vaccinated, but their attorney said they weren't anti-vaccination, but hoped their healthy lifestyle provided enough protection.
Source: Their Wikipedia page (Can't post a link as the comment will not be shown then)
Died from COVID? Surely you mean, relinquished their physical forms to live forever in cyberspace?
@Marcas de Barún 💯%. Their mortal bodies were limiting them.
@Alexz They activated quantum immortality
They died 6 days apart from one another too.
I know they were getting on in years, but I still find it a bit creepy, especially considering the fairly low mortality rate of being covid positive
@Adam Sheppard They seem to have caught it at the same moment, which increases the likelihood they both received a high viral load, one of the risk factors for coming down with a serious case.
The final revelation of the revenge being carried on by his life partner is kinda wholesome even tho it is extremely sad, the academia can indeed be very much close minded and toxic.
I think one has to be careful with statements like that. Granted, it's possible, but the quote was "gay, Jewish and right-wing" and given right-wingers victim complex it could well be that all those slights were simply perceived and never real. Particularly super hard science like mathematics is very non-prejudicial. Obviously, like I said, it's possible that it all was about prejudice, but we only have the word of someone who'd willingly sacrifice the reputation of himself, his field and his institution for revenge. I wouldn't promote someone with that attitude.
@DrZaius3141 while i get where you are coming from, just because fields are non-prejudicial might not apply to the institution. getting recommended by his non-judgmental peers only for the ones with the purse strings to snub him is still a possibility.
hell the truth could just be they thought he was an asshole due to him thinking they were homophobic antisemites.
@DrZaius3141 I'm sorry, but very much lol at thinking any stem subject being non-prejudicial.
That's your takeaway? You have no clue what wholesome means me thinks
@J H why?
The Sminem meme can be analyzed pretty closely. He represents a poor, downtrodden average person, unable to afford better clothing than bootleg T-shirts. He represents the average person’s ability to get rich from crypto. The Bogs are, uh, meant to represent Jewish people keeping him down.
It's also funny how people's reaction to it is "it's just a meme". They don't want you to think about it too much, they just want you to spread the meme. Those who don't get it might find it funny, but those who really get it will feel validated in their bullshit beliefs that still needs cryptic messaging...
Circles do as Circles are.
@Rave Decoy Or, people who really get it and find it funny have no concerns for the bad actors who repurpose edgy humor to justify their batcrap beliefs.
Then again, with a stupid concept such as dogwhistles, there's no such thing as playing the fool for a cheap laugh at the expense of people with harmful delusions. To do that would only serve to perpetuate those beliefs, no matter how absurd the context is.
@darkfool2000 Yeah, you think you get it but you just don't. But most children don't understand how the world works and laugh at stuff to not feel left out. You'll catch up in time. For some it might take a while, everybody matures at a different rate - even when it comes to the brain. Don't beat yourself up over it!
Oh shit. I had no idea. If that's really what 4channers mean to spread when using this meme it's actually fucked up as it can draw the general public into their extreme circles through seemingly innocent memes.
Absolutely phenomenal video. I especially loved how the last line tied everything together. Keep it up!
Unfortunately, the brothers are now deceased.
@SoaringMoon wow, I didn't know... sad and tragic, 6 days apart...
Really, that last line was chillingly good. This guy is great story teller and journalist. He should make this in podcast form too
The great reveal.
@U.V. S. Their final ages were roughly 6 days and 40 minutes apart.
Dumb little fact I dug around and found. Maybe a few more hours between it, but Igor's the older one.
The final twist made me bury my face in my hands. This story was bonkers, but the ending was the jem in the crown, so to speak. Maybe the real PhDs were the lovers that we met along the way
Regarding antisemitism in France:
I can't speak to it personally, but my mother's told me the story of the month she spent in high school, going to a French school in 1981. She didn't tell anybody she was Jewish, and the moment they found out, she was the victim of ridicule from the host family and the other students, the hosts complaining that they wanted to host a real American, not a Jew. Antisemitism in France, at least in the early 80's, was a real thing, and very well could have been by the time the Bogdanoffs entered the field, and the line of sight of Flato.
That’s very important to consider
This sounds hard to believe. After the US, France has the largest Jewish population outside of Israel.
@@javiermesa-martinez8731 it that Jewish population moved there after the WWII the immigration could’ve brought out the antisemitism in the public. Sadly that happens a lot
@@placeholderdoeFrance has had a significant Jewish population since Roman times. Many important French historical, artistic, academic, and celebrities were/are Jewish.
No denying that, like in the rest of the world, France also had their own antisemitic issues (and anti other minority groups). But the cartoonish scenario the previous poster presented is bordering the ridiculous, specially in France in the 80s.
FWIW; the whole "international elites" is a common conspiracy theory trope that includes not just the Jews, but the Jesuits, the Freemasons, the WASPs, etc. Groups that have little to do with each other, which is why they are usually the tell tale symptom of the ramblings of people, experiencing mental health issues, like these twins. Generalizing an entire country as being antisemitic based on the ramblings of 2 mentally ill people is also not particularly healthy.
Cheers.
@@javiermesa-martinez8731 For what it's worth, I never said that my mother only experienced antisemitism, only that her host family and some other students treated her like that and thus it's reasonable to say that it was present in France during that time period. I can't speak more to her experience or the extent of it, since that was over 40 years ago and I only know what she told me.
This is super random, but I really appreciate that you're pronouncing the various non-English-derived names (at least to my ears) more or less how they should be pronounced. It bothers the heck out of me when people create a compelling, well-researched documentary, and then don't even bother to look up how to properly pronounce the names of those featured in it.
Edit: holy mess, that zinger at the end totally recontextualizes the entire story
Can't say the same about the Slavic names though...
@IllidanS4 I think it’s partially because he’s Canadian and from very close to Quebec so he knows French pretty well
Idk names are names, names are bullshit, unless you have some context to the language it’s from, pronouncing a name correctly is very hard.
@@draketurtle4169 You can literally put the name into Google Translate and let it read it for you.
@IllidanS4 there is big difference between having something read to you from someone who knows how to actually pronounce the word (the actual sounds that make up that word) and saying a word (without the knowledge of those individual sounds that make it up).
Depending on your first language some sounds common in other languages don’t even exist.
Like if there are few words where you ‘roll an R’ you might struggle to do this because it’s something you have never had to do with your muscles.
You know, I'd like to imagine that in an alternate reality Igor and Grichka failed to make it to TV and decided to pursue their PhD's normally, becoming regular scientists in the process.
"Igor and Grichka are not a pair of grandmasters. They're a pair of middle fingers..." My man, that is how you write a conclusion.
Is absolutely no one going to talk about the fact he made an entire sock puppet show for one small part of this video.
That’s when I hit subscribe
How about the part where when an Australian is introduced, they're upside down?
My favorite part lol
Actually at 46:00 it says it wasn't him. But still it's great that he made that scene.
That's my girlfriend lol, she and I are the hands you see in the video
"Dr. Yang was just using Igor's computer" has the same vibe as when Ms. Scribe tried to say that it was her live-in nanny that made the sock puppet accounts.
In Serbia where I currently live, a Megatrend degree (any megatrend degree) costs about 4000 € (just under 5000 USD), you literally buy it, they keep "phantom students" in their records, so once a buyer comes, his info is put instead of that phantom student, then you go take a picture with a few professors so it looks like you really did go there, and you have a "clean" diploma, takes less than a month.
While this is true, it's (possibly) not the full story. I have a friend who studied economics and management there, and according to him you can actually study there legitimately and earn an honest degree... If you desire to do so. So there are legit professors doing proper work there, it's just that members of the "Serbian elite" may also purchase ready-made diplomas as well.
You have a tremendous talent for eliciting genuine, nuanced empathy for people who do shitty things
We should all work harder to do this. E all are bound to mess up.
I was thinking this same thing but couldn't quite figure out how to say it - you put it into words perfectly. I have so much respect for how well Broccoli can blend "this person is odd " with well researched and fully sourced (as far as I can tell) critique, while always treating everyone from the best to the worst as a human being so naturally, and never as a joke. The moment of this video that summarises that best for me was "I don't know if the brothers know about the bogpill meme, and for their sakes I hope they never do."
Yes!! One of my favorite things about this channel is that it's fundamentally empathetic
mentioning their plasitic surgieries only in the context of their body dismorphia and never once ridiculing them (for this), @BobbyBroccoli is a pure class act. <3
I didn't expect the end to hit me like that. To think this all might have stemmed from the indignity and anger against oppression, and in a sense love in a world that forbid it. It left a sense of tragedy and helplessness in my mouth.
Sokal's paper might have been satire, but if true, Flato amd Sterheimer's efforts were far greater, and feels extremely bittersweet. Like they pulled off something incredible but ultimately born out of the inability to do anything else about the injustices they faced.
(And just in case people decide to oversimplify things, Flato being a right wing voter does not make the anti-semiticism or homophobia he faced any less significant, nor his struggle against them any less legitimate).
Flato: I have purposely trained the Bogdanoffs wrong, as a joke
i wouldnt say "a joke"
id say "Spite"
@Robert Simmons If you haven't been informed yet, you are missing that it's a reference to Kung Pow: Enter the Fist (IIRC)
@PurpleShift42 ah. fair enough.
"my dissertation to your tabloid technique, how do you like it?"
"My PhD has been rescinded, making me the victor."
i'm a young adult from france, and i knew the bogdaoffs just like everyone in the country, as public figures who did tv shows on science and who brought people to be more interested in science, but who ultimately did more vulgarization work and public figure things than anything. from my point of view, the only controversies i knew about the brothers were about their faces, people were speculating on whether they had a genetic disease that modified their faces or if they had body dysmorphia and underwent plastic surgery to enhance their appearances. i had absolutely no idea they went against the CNRS or tried to contribute to science as researchers. it seems to me that most people had good things to say about them, because lots said they were humble, kind guys and made them dream of becoming scientists when they were younger, or made them interested in science fiction. maybe it's because i was born in 2000 and was too young to remember about the marianne stuff, but all of that was unknown to me. thanks so much for making such an enjoyable documentary available to everyone, i'm sure you put a lot of hard work into this and i'm sure i'm not the only one so thankful to have stumbled upon your work.
Wonderful storytelling. Especially fitting that you were able to summarise the events at the end as cleanly as you did.
On the twist:
As an academic ... I get it. I don't like it, but I understand it completely.
"you have NO POSTS"
fucking brutal
didn't expect to feel like crying at chapter 0, but here we are! "maybe alan sokal does have a true rival after all." man...
wow. just wow! the depth of research, the sensitivity and empathy shown in this documentary is beautiful. (not to mention the animations) And the awareness of memes, social cues, dogwhistles, and "man-o-sphere" is epic. Youve pulled in many disciplines and ended this documentary with appropriate dignity and compassion. Fantastic. Brilliant.
Every time I think this story can’t get more insane, it somehow manages to ascend to greater heights of madness. Excellent video
like bitcoin plummeting after their death?
Yarwell reality jumped the shark in about 2012
The brothers are like super sayajin 3, they can go even further beyond...
The bogpill is difficult, but it is necessary
The sock puppets bit was really well done! Don't limit yourself to physics dramas, your storytelling is outstanding.
RIP Bogdanoffs. You weren’t perfect humans by any means, but intentionally or not, you brought happiness to many people. Isn’t that all anyone could ask for?
The Bogdanoffs certainly were two of the more interesting walking piles of stardust that I have been fortunate enough to share this planet with.
They passed away? Well that's tragic
@@partlycloudy7707 Yea, they died of Covid after refusing the vaccine, stating their healthy lifestyles would be adequate protection.
@@partlycloudy7707yeah they got murdered, truly tragic
@@everythingpony
...Your php fits your words so well😂
But alas, you're right. The COVID Killer spared no expense.
I absolutely love the imagery of dominos to represent the different chapters and how they have relevant symbols that can be understood after the chapter has been finished. This video is really a work of art
ngl, this two part documentary had me hooked way harder than any big blockbuster movie. the ending was way better, too. amazing work.
Seeing this over a year later, knowing about their passings, and then hitting the final twist towards the end of the video brought me to tears. 😭
Such a fantastic production! Thank you so much for all of your hard work!
Forget the Bog-Pill, I am Broccoli pilled, these videos are stellar my dude. I love learning about weird and obscure stories like this and you do a tremendous job of presenting them in a fascinating way.
Love how this was all over and still being called "obscure"
You're American? Just curious since this was a kinda big deal in, especially France, but Europe over all :)
@Theghostoflazlo Please excuse my ignorance on a subject that was not deemed newsworthy due to my geographical location. I'm actually Cuban by the way.
@Daniel Santos: Analytical Editorials lol, just take the L and realize this is not ObScuRe just because you haven't heard about it
@Theghostoflazlo Never seen anyone act so condescending and smug over something so benign, whatever floats your boat I suppose.
@Theghostoflazlo put more effort in ur baiting pls
The thing that keeps me on YouTube are these massively fucking talented people making these amazing pieces. This dude is going to have 1 mill within a couple years, if not sooner. The amount of effort put into your content is AMAZING and you definitely have something that’s very unique on YouTube, especially in this genre. Not only that but you have a repertoire of vids to watch for dem channel minutes lol. Love the content! Please don’t stop!
this was incredible, ive yet to find another channel that does these kinds of deep dives into modern scientific academia. there were MULTIPLE moments where i either audibly gasped or was left with my jaw hanging open when some twist was revealed
"In late 2016... Things moved to 4chan."
Oh fuck, here we go.
the ending line was incredible, gave me chills. excellent documentary and i agree 100% with your stance on the memes
"sorry, did i keep you waiting?" no since i just found this channel and have been binge watching all day but daaaamn okay i'm officially entranced, i love this presentation style and pacing and it is making this stuff so interesting even though i dont havrvany background in these topics!
As a french person I spent my whole childhood (and more) sometimes seeing these guy on TV, never knowing they actually tried to pass as real scientists. To me they were just TV show hosts.
Same for me! Despide that I already knew they were all but scientists (I'm physicist btw) I had no idea that they were known outside the somewhat closed french-speaking community.
Beside that, it would be fair to acknowledge that their TV shows inspired many french kids and oriented some of them towards sciences.
That may well be their biggest contribution to science imho
same!!! je pensais que c'était clair pour tout le monde que c'étaient des personnalités qui faisaient de la vulgarisation scientifique, et qu'ils étaient plus branchés sur la science fiction que sur la science, je savais absolument pas qu'ils avaient essayé de se legitimiser dans la profession de chercheurs scientifiques c'est fou
@nathan d'après ce que j'ai lu dans les reportages du BBC, il semble qu'ils se sont dirigés vers a science fantaisie, en croyant que des conneries leurs protégeraient contre la covid. Ils n'ont certainement pas étudier la biophysique....
Pareil, je ne savais pas du tout qu'ils avaient eu des doctorats et qu'ils faisaient des procès à droite à gauche pour intimider leurs critiques...
Their story is so surreal that it makes you wonder if we actually live in the simulation. I mean, the rabbithole associated with them is so deep, from tv celebrities to phds and authors of theoretical physics papers to internet meme gods. Great video !
Just found your channel and want to say, thank you. You are so very kind in these videos, making sure you represent people fairly and with respect.
Just found your channel. Subbed after the first video. While I'm not a physics person (I went to law school because I hate math), I can appreciate making not so easy to undertand material more understanding, and the fact that the editing is really professional just adds to the whole experience. I will be looking forward to more videos! Cheers from a new fan.
Yesterday I saw your video about Schön. Now I watched this one of the Bog brothers. I'm astounded by the amazing quality by telling this academic narrative but also making some very interesting and important comments on society as a whole. Hats off to you, BobbyBroccoli, keep it up!
I want you to know that I really appreciate you taking the time and care to address the Nazi situation in the way that you did. You always seem to understand the responsibilities of being a content creator in a way that I have the utmost respect for. You could have left that part silent but instead you addressed it head-on and made a definitive stand.
Kudos.
I've noticed with my German best friend that you can nail down someone's native language through grammatical errors. Over the several years Ive talked to her and learning some German myself, it's really easy to pick out a native German speaker in a forum or whatnot. We saw this with the Bog sock puppets and the French mistakes. If any of you are familiar with how people of other languages tend to write english, you have a pretty cool skill that can come in handy! Especially for things like internet investigations like this
Same with Chinese, Russian
@azimuth Russian speaker is indistinguishable from native. Don't let lack of articles fool you.
You shoulda chosen a different example. Germans are easiest to spot because they feel the need to mention their nationality every chance possible. I'm German, by the way.
@【ハンス・フリッツ】 haha they begin every sentence with “In Germany, we…”
@777jones I have never seen this kind of behaviour around here in germany.
the transition from gaming reviews to THIS ... is
MINDBLOWING !!! THIS is why i (still) LOVE Youtube.
Your recent uploads are in the Top 0.1% of quality content.
THANK YOU.
I can't believe you can just watch something of this caliber without paying anything
i know the "bog pill" segment raises valid issues about internet culture... but hearing bobby say "yogurt-pilled" at 31:53 made me laugh lmao
Slight point: transcendental numbers are also irrational. The opposite of transcendental is algebraic, so while yes phi is irrational, so is pi.
If nothing else, this is the best testament for blender and vegas being amazing software.
God damn, how have I not found this channel earlier? How does this not have ALL the views on youtube? F**king phenomenal research, beautiful visuals, absolutely amazing story telling.
Watching this now, I really appreciate the time to rebuke comments on the twins physical appearance. As a person who struggles with body appearance stuff I really appreciate you taking the time to have a little empathy about their issues and criticise them on their actual wrongdoing not their personal problems
I think it's an interesting question in general, whether or not body appearance jokes are immoral. I think it comes down to the presentation/intent; sometimes jokes are used as a way to 'put people in their place', deserved or not. I don't think that this kind of usage of body appearance jokes is personally acceptable, save for when the butt of the joke thinks they're hot stuff for a particular appearance and they try to assert their superiority in taste or otherwise act chauvinistic about their identity.
People can intend multiple things even with an identical word set and syntax, and different people can say the exact same thing in the same context but it actually being meant two very distinct ways- such is the imperfection of language. I don't think it's right to condemn an entire dimension of humor over that distinctly cruel dimension of body appearance humor, since you can find it in pretty much every flavor of humor.
I don't mind confronting our intentions in using a particular kind of humor, whether it be broadly or individually, and regardless if one chooses to engage in body humor or not I agree that it's a good exercise in empathy and intellectual honesty to acknowledge whatever lead the Bogs to modify their body like they did, but I hope that you don't misattribute all jokes about physical appearance to be rooted in cruelty
(An example of body appearance jokes being definitively not cruel in nature, in my view, is showing the Bogandovs as the chad meme because of their uncanny resemblance- being a chad is usually a positive spin)
@Beansworth There is this thing about morbidly obese health ministers in certain countries.
I'd say they are not strictly immoral if they are at least related to the underlying issue. And then there also is the issue on how much the person is contributing to their outside appearance.
@Beansworth this is a weirdly defensive and irrelevant comment lol, op didn't ask whether body image jokes are immoral, or claim that all jokes about physical appearance are rooted in cruelty
@Jeffrey I can see how you'd get that impression, and to be honest looking back on OP's comment it was a bit in bad taste to immediately use his comment on his feelings to springboard a conversation about ethics in humor.
Felt like it was relevant enough at the time to provoke me making that reply, though, because it was something the original video that got me thinking about
@Alexander Gräf Yeah, the thing with the obese health ministers falls into a similar category as rebuking someone for being unduly chauvinistic about their identity, as the health ministry is the butt of the joke rather than the obese individual
Although, I don't really think that a person's contribution to their personal appearance justifies a joke alone: a person who made a bad choice being humiliated for it isn't very moral if there isn't some sort of payoff for their or others' benefit. The Bogandovs, for example, had all the choice in the world when it came to looking how they do, but it's a choice that can't be reversed at the realization that it looks silly for a number reasons, (some more obvious than others).
Making fun of a person or situation in private, where those it concerns can't be harmed and where there is an understanding that the humor is a coping mechanism or leisure activity rather than a reinforcement of a hierarchy is rarely immoral, though, imo. The jokes one makes with their in-group are only accountable to the effect that the irreverence may have rather than the irreverence itself, in my moral framework
@BobbyBroccoli - 2022-01-01
Some clarifications regarding my thoughts on the Bog-pill, since it's come up more than a few comments:
In the same way reddit, twitter or any website isn't a hivemind, neither is 4chan. 4chan is a big place with lots of innocuous stuff, I'm not referring to cat pictures and people working on their cars or whatever. If you specifically go digging for the original Bog-pill threads though, what you'll find is pages and pages of slurs and really sickening comments. Jokes or not, that shit is awful. I don't think intention matters if the stuff you're saying is that bad.
But of course the Bog memes get diluted and altered as they're shared around to other sites, and although I personally don't want to engage much with it, I agree that most people sharing the memes are unaware of the origins of them and aren't actively trying to spread any hate. Igor and Grichka are weird guys, I get why people find the memes funny. But imo, given how much weird and meme-able stuff the brothers have legitimately done, I'd argue we can make fun of them without resorting to the Bog-pill stuff. Just my take.
@billyandrew - 2022-01-09
Both recently dead now, six days apart, from cov-19.
I find it strange, hearing the claims they were behind Bitcoin.
I took them to be just another two investors and nothing more, whereas Jake Rothschild bought 14% of Bitcoin in either 2017 or 2018, I can't recall which, but am certain it took a nosedive three months later.
I'm guessing lots of folk got out and others bought in, while it was struggling.
Such is finance...fickle.
@kjpmi - 2022-01-09
@BobbyBroccoli thoughts on their deaths??
@BobbyBroccoli - 2022-01-10
That fact on its own isn't, I criticize billionaires all the time. But fixating on specifically Jewish billionaire (Soros also pops up in a few posts in the vid), that's when things get highly sus.
@KazuyaMithra - 2022-01-14
@BobbyBroccoli I never inferred that the mention of the Rothschilds was supposed to be a "dogwhistle", because people don't have to dogwhistle to be antisemites on 4chan, they are as blatant as they want to be. I just thought the joke was that they were such an immensely wealthy family anyways.
@macicoinc9363 - 2022-01-22
@fooflateka Yeah, I really don't understand why he used that as the example of anti-semitism, when it is literally making fun of it.